3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

[dsbiggles]

Got directed to this site/forum from a general Jag forum and it seems to be a great resource. Wondering if anyone can help with this one:

I have what I think is a duff starter motor on my 3.4S. Battery is 100% (tried another one), tried a new solenoid and done all the various dodges such as tapping with hammers and turning the end bolt. When trying to start it after a short lay up it went a bit sluggish (as if the battery was dying) and then stopped, which makes me think something has burned out. Solenoid clicks fine and lights dim when starter is pressed.
Having looked around there seems to be a lot of different advice on the best way to undo the nuts. I'd seen some advice on MK2 forums that scared the heck out of me (remove carbs, access via gearbox tunnel etc) but I've now worked out that the S Type has that curved bracket holding the bolts so you only need to undo the nuts. So far so good...
But, does anyone know the size of the nuts (assuming mine are still standard) and has anyone got any tips on what to use to undo the top one? I can't seem to get a spanner on it and have any chance of turning it. Looks like a socket should fit OK but the motor body will get in the way of a ratchet? Anyone had any success? Offset ring spanner? Flexible elbow joint on the ratchet? Really long extension bar to get the ratchet clear of the motor body?

Any advice gratefully accepted!

[cass3958]

Welcome to the forum. I have done this job several times and wrote about it in the Archive forum. You can find the whole topic here http://www.jagstyperegister.com/forum/v ... otor#p2996 but below is what I wrote about removing the starter motor. Not an easy job as you are finding out. I swapped my starter motor out for a High torque modern starter and it really turns the engine over to start. Not worth having the old one rebuilt which I did at first as the new high torque motor will cost the same as a rebuild but is 10 times better. You cannot see the starter motor where it is so no one will comment on you having a modern starter and the new one is smaller and lighter so easier to get back in.


"Today I tackled the starter motor. Because all the work is at the back of the engine the bonnet/hood had to come off. I then removed the air filter and alloy housing attached to the carbs. Next I did some electrical tests by connecting a live wire to the starter and an earth to the engine block and tried the starter motor. With a newly charged battery it was barely turning over so convinced it was not a wiring problem I started on the taking the motor out. Removed the electrical connection with a ½ spanner. Difficult to get to as it under the carbs.
Looked down the back of the engine to locate the top bolt and could not see it let alone get to it due to the heater water pipes. Several jubilee clips later and they were out of the way. Managed to get a 9/16 stubby spanner on the nut on the gearbox side and then felt underneath the carbs for the bolt heads and suddenly remembered that the bolt heads are welded on to a metal ring and don’t turn. See the attached photo. I did not need to use Jose’s suggestion of a long extension on my ratchet after all. The nut on the gearbox side though had so little room around it that I could only turn the nut an 1/8th of a turn at a time. 30 mins later and the nut was off. I jacked the car up at the front and secured it on axle stands before crawling under to look at the bottom nut. Same problem limited space so another 30 mins later and the starter motor was free. With my right hand down the front of the carbs and my left hand down the back I managed to get the starter motor out of the gearbox and then slid it forward hoping to do as Jose did and take it out of the top over the distributor. Nothing doing I am afraid. The bottom of the starter fouls on the oil pressure switch situated on the top of the oil filter housing and the top fouls on the throttle linkage. No way was this going out the top. My car is a 1968 3.4s auto so might be different to Jose’s car. Anyway I lowered the starter motor down towards the bottom of the car with my left hand supporting the lower end and my right hand guiding the top. Bloody heavy old thing and when I had lowered it down on so it was between the chassis leg and engine block I tried to remove my left hand and found I was trapped. There was no pressure on my hand but the gap between the starter motor and the inner wing was large enough for my wrist but too small for my hand to pass through. Tried lifting the starter up with my left hand but it was just too heavy and I was stretching too far with my right hand to get a good grip. Stuck! After 30 mins of lying across the wing of the car with my left hand stuck, crying, I contemplated phoning the fire brigade as I had my mobile phone in my right trouser pocket or phoning my mate to come and help me but he was at least an hour away. What a dilemma! I couldn’t face the fire brigade so tried one last time to lift the starter motor and managed to move it a fraction which allowed my left hand to just scrape free. Time for a cup of coffee.
Anyway back under the car and the starter motor would not come out of the gap between the chassis leg and the engine due to the screw on oil filter canister being in the way. Unscrewed this and starter motor slid out. Only took 4 hours to remove it."

The manual talks about removing the oil pipes and filler pipe to the gearbox but I found these did not have to be removed.

When it came to putting the starter motor back in I could not for the life of me line the starter up in the hole. This was from the underside of the car pushing the heavy motor up above my head with the horrid feeling that if I slipped this was going to fall back through the gap onto my head. The nose was only partially going into the bell housing and I could not push it in any further as it was jamming on something. After an hour of struggling I realized that the back of the starter was fouling on the oil pressure sender which was stopping me from getting it horizontal enough to slide into the hole in the bell housing. Strange that it came out this was with the oil filter housing in situ. Anyway I had to remove the oil pressure sender to get the starter horizontal and allow it to slip back into its hole.

[dsbiggles]

Many thanks. So it's a 9/16 nut?

Hi torque replacement seems to be the way to go. I will also try connecting it direct to a battery before I remove it, just in case.

[cass3958]

When I had my starter rebuilt I had all new bushes and bearings fitted but it still did not give me the ummph I needed on a cold day to start the car. I run a wedding car service with my S Type and I was not 100% confident that the car would start first time everytime which is why I went to the high torque motor. Spins the engine like there are no plugs in.
When I first bought the High torque I gave the company the details of my car being that it was an auto and they sent me a starter motor. With the same effort of the above I removed the old starter and fitted the new but when I went to start the car the cog on the starter was not engaging with the flywheel. I took it back out and tested it on the bench and it was working fine. I put it back on the car and same thing happened. Removed it again could not see any problems, was still working on the bench, fitted it a third time and still had the problem of the starter cog not throwing out far enough to engage with the flywheel. Took it out again and made some measurements and worked out the cog could not throw out far enough to engage with the flywheel because the company had sent me the starter motor for a manual car!!!!!
Had to put the old one back in whilst the new but wrong high torque starter motor was exchanged for the correct one. So I am a bit of an expert at getting the starter motor in and out of the car now but not through choice. The top nut on the bracket I had to use a 9/16 open ended spanner. I had a little stubby one so I could get a long arch to turn it. If you use a long 9/16 the end of the spanner fouls on all sorts of things and you cannot turn it very far. The new high torque starter had a nut and bolt as the half ring with welded bolts does not fit. I found this easier to work with as I could get a really long socket on extension bars to come from the front of the engine right under the carbs on to the bolt head whilst the other end could be held with an open spanner.
Good luck and if you need any further advice please ask.
Can I ask that you fill in your location in your details so we know where you are. You never know you might be around the corner from one of us who is always willing to help out. Secondly if you can add your chassis number to your signature we can then see which 3.8s you have, ie LHD or RHD, Coventry built or CKD. Thanks.

[dsbiggles]

As a follow up, in case anyone with the same issue is reading this thread, I managed to get the top nut undone using a 1/4" 9/16 socket, 19 inches of extensions and a small, 1/4 drive ratchet. If the extension is any shorter it fouls the carbs; any longer and it hits the distributor. Using a 3/8 or 1/2 drive means the ratchet is too big to get in the gap and get any purchase. Also, you need a good quality socket - not one made of cheese as supplied with those small socket sets. Interestingly, once I loosened it, it I found that the nut was just attached to a bolt, not the strap as per parts diagrams etc. It has probably been replaced at some point in the past. I'm amazed I managed to get the nut undone without the bolt turning and could then undo it by hand, holding the bolt head and spinning the nut off with my fingers.

Now to tackle the lower nut....

[dsbiggles]

The saga continues... Bottom nut was some nasty Nyloc thing that had been chewed up in the past. Managed to tap a socket on to it and shift it. Then, held the bolt head with a small socket and got it undone.

Next job is withdrawing the starter. This looked nigh on impossible from underneath, so I drew it towards the front of the car. It helps if you leave the power cable connected to the starter motor and you can use that to take the weight of the motor.
You need to unhook the large return spring under the carbs and also undo the carb overflow pipes. Also, unclip the lead from the top of the oil filter. Next, unclip the distributor cap, loosen the top radiator hose and also remove the connectors from the brake light switch on the bulkhead. You can then withdraw the starter motor upwards and just rotate the top rad hose a bit to give enough clearance.

Sounds like a faff, but, I reckon it is marginally easier than trying to pull the starter through the gap underneath - unless you have the luxury of a proper lift to raise the car up. I have ordered up a high torque starter. I could probably get this one refurbished for a lot less, but I like the idea that the high torque ones are lighter!

[cass3958]

Glad you got it out in the end. I found as previously stated coming out the bottom was easier once I had removed the oil filter housing and the oil temp sender. Still a tight fit between the chassis leg and sump but fractionally easier than removing all the bits you had to then feeding it along under the carbs to pull it out the top. Bloody heavy and you will find the high torque starter so much easier to handle into place.

[dsbiggles]

starter.jpg (537.6 KiB) Viewed 1172 times

Help. This is really turning into a saga.

I have got the new hi-torque starter located (ish). I sourced a curved band with the bolts on it. Bottom nut on. Was about to try and push starter home and put on the top nut, but with the motor in place the bolt thread would be between the motor body and the block! I guess I could probably push the nut through 'blind' from the front of the car, held on to something with tape, but that looks mad.

So, it looks like turning the motor up the other way would work, with the solenoid/relay bit on top and motor below. However, that puts the power cable connection facing the block. Not a major problem, as I can connect it up first, but I am paranoid about getting the starter in the wrong way round because the cog on the end looks 'handed'. It might not be, of course, But I can't find any clues on the 'net.
Does anyone who has a high torque starter fitted have a pic or can tell me which way up it goes? Motor on top or relay on top?

[dsbiggles]

I may have answered my own question:

https://www.sngbarratt.com/English/#/uk ... embly/5845

Looks like the band goes round the starter and the nuts are fitted from the BACK of the car? When I took it off, mine had a couple of shonky old bolts through from the back and nuts screwed on from the front of the car.

?

[cass3958]

I can show a photo tomorrow but I found the "U" shaped bolt holder did not fit with the new starter motor so I discarded it and fitted nuts and bolts. I think from memory I had to use the Churchill tool "WIFE" to hold a spanner on one of the bolts whilst I used a very long extension with a ratchet to do up the nuts.
The solenoid goes at the top with the cables away from the block.