Rear inner wheel arch

[cass3958]

July 2013 I bought my S type from a guy in Bedford. The car had had a lot of work done to it prior to me taking charge in that a lot of new panels had been welded in. These included rear wheel arch repairs, new front left wing. Wheel arch repair front right wing, Crows feet, front cross member, new sills both sides, along with some patch work on a door. All of the work was completed by a company called “Flying Cat Engineering” based just north of Royston, Hertfordshire UK. They are a Jaguar restoration specialist allegedly. £6000 worth of welding labour and parts with receipts and I only bought the car for £4500. When I picked the car up all the work was still exposed as this was pre paint and I was not impressed by some of the work but it had been done.
I took the car back to Devon where I stripped the car completely then had it grit blasted to see if there was any further hidden rust in any of the panels. I found some holes under the pedal box, a hole in the bulkhead behind the battery and some holes on the rear inner wing which I repaired. The inner rear wing was repaired by cutting out the section that was rotten and I then obtained two second hand panels from a guy who was breaking a 420 and these were butt welded in to place. Can’t see the joins. I was aware of a mish mash of repairs under the outside of the rear wing that had been done by “Flying Cat” which was a bit of a mess but I had trusted them foolishly to have done a proper job. By that I mean having cut out all the rusty metal new metal would have been shaped and butt welded into place. Hard to tell if a good job has been done or not as this is a double skinned area and once the repairs are done you cannot see the back of the repair. Plus with the wheels on you cannot see the wheel wells.
So the car was completed in November 2014 and has spent over five years driving around in all weathers and for the first two years used to sit outside all winter until I built my car port. End of last year I noticed a small rust bubble coming through on the rear wheel arch and had planned on getting this repaired this spring. With the lock down today I decided to crack on with it.

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I could tell that the problem was not surface rust but was coming through from the inside. Not good. I decided to cut out some of the inner wheel arch to do a proper job not trusting “Flying Cat” to have done it properly. What I found was appalling. All the rusty metal of the inner wheel arch was still in place but a piece of metal had been crudely fashioned into shape and then lap welded over the top with an overlap of around three to four inches in places.

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The lower lip of the inner arch where it meets up with the wheel arch lip had not been welded but instead stuck down with mastic glue and the upper edge was tack welded so there were gaps for water to get in.
In this photo you can see the back of the weld line where the lower wing repair panel has been welded in and you would have thought with this lower section removed the rusted out inner wing could clearly have been seen and should have been dealt with.

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I have to take some of the blame for not checking this when the car was stripped but it had been so well hidden quite frankly the only way this poor job could be seen was by ripping it all to pieces as I was now doing.
I could have handed this over to my paint shop to address the rust on the arch but they would possibly have treated it as surface rust and not done what I have which is repair the cause not the wound and the rust would have returned within a couple of years. So it is now all ripped out, I have to clean it up now and it gives me an opportunity to paint the inside of the rear wing which is bare metal as it came from the factory with some rust inhibiting paint. I have contacted a couple of mates of mine who break old Jaguars to see if I can get a decent inner wing panel as making a new one will be difficult without an English wheel because of the two way curve at the top. This inner wing panel is not something that Martin Robey or SNG supply.
With the inner wing removed I cleaned up the inner lip and scrapped off the paint from the outer lip and these are the holes I found.

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I might have to check the other side even though it is not showing any rust yet as I think Flying Cat have possibly done the same there. That's for tomorrow.

[Glyn Ruck]

What a pity. Fortunately Robey's has the outer arch.

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Now the usual argument. To joddle or to butt. My car was rust free but my restorer believes in joddling whereever possible. He's a master with a roller joddler & an English wheel.

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[cass3958]

Glyn I have already or at least the previous owner had new quarter rear repair panels fitted five years ago so the metal is good apart from what you can see on the lip. I have contacted both SNG and Martin Robey, those rear quarter panels are over £380 a side and a lot of work cutting out the old and welding in the new. I asked if they just did the lip and if they did an inner wheel arch but was told no.
I have a couple of sources for Jaguar breakers so I have put the word out for what I want and will see if one of them comes back with good secondhand panels that I can weld in after treating. I could easily make the lip section but would struggle to make the inner wheel arch without an english wheel.

Joddle or butt weld.
I have a Joddler for my air compressor so could Joddle the weld but if you Joddle the weld you need to weld both sides as in your diagram or you create an over lap on one side that moisture can get in to and the fact it has been heated up so not paint protection will rust out again in a couple of years. Especially in the wheel arch. Also being in the wheel arch the top of the joint is in a cavity between the outer wing and the inside of the boot wall so there is no way you can get in behind to weld the Joddle joint closed. I am going to have to close butt weld it on the one side to seal the joint. Unfortunately this is going to be upside down welding which I hate. It was bad enough cutting and grinding the old sections with my head stuck up in the wheel well. Came out looking like Stirling Moss after a Grand Prix. I was also working around the rear hub so when I start fabricating and welding I am going to have to remove the hubs to give me more room. Easy job as I have only just fitted them after new rear bearings.

[Glyn Ruck]

Yes understood. Joddling depends on access ~ e.g. partial lower door skin.

[cass3958]

So got the feelers out for a replacement inner arch just waiting for someone to come back to me. I thought I would have a go making one and decided to buy some 16 gauge mild steel and work on it over the weekend. Local metal merchants are only taking orders over the phone and have furloughed half their staff so I cannot pick the steel up until next Wednesday. Never mind I do have other things to do.

[NigelW]

That's a real shame Rob, I've stayed away from that outfit in Royston even though they are very close to me. I know what's involved with that job as ive had to do both sides of my car, I made the inner panels myself and used the Robey outer repair sections although they were a lot cheaper in 1993. If you do joddel the panels like I did the best thing to use is weld through primer and when done inject Waxoil (or whatever you favourite anti rust treatment is) down inside the wings in the boot. Like I said I did this twenty seven years ago and it is still OK. Photo of work in progress, not welded.

[cass3958]

Although I have the feelers out I decided to make an inner wheel arch out of some old rusty metal I had lying around the garage as an experiment. It came out ok so I think I will make up the new panel tomorrow with the new stuff I am collecting. To be truthful I can probably make the lip over the arch as well as I only need about three inches of it. I just need to find a piece of pipe I can shape for the curve and then beat the 16 gauge around it in a vice to get the right shape.
One question though Nigel and I appreciate it was twenty seven years ago but how far down did you bring the inner arch towards the lip of the wheel arch. Also when you welded the inner arch to the outer wing did you tack weld it or weld it fully along the joints. I was thinking of bringing the inner arch down to about an inch or two of the bottom of the wheel arch so the lip that turns in and is where all the mud sits and rusts is free of weld and could be cleaned easily.

[NigelW]

From what I remember I matched up the lips and plug welded the two together at about one inch intervals, the exposed lips on the inside were sealed with non setting seam sealer. I used 18swg steel and that was tough enough to shape in a compound curve. The lip was formed using a wood former and knocked into shape with with another tool made of hard wood that we used to use to shape lead sleeve joints that encapsulate large trunk telephone cables running underground, old school plumbing skills.

[jonesdl]

Sorry to hear your news about the rust in the back end of the S type Rob, you must have been gutted after spending so much time going through the car. The moral here unfortunately is you never know how other people have repaired the car earlier once it's covered by other panels very soul destroying finding out, hopefully that is the only part now you have not already covered during the rebuild.
Following your experience in an earlier post, I intend to remove both my fuel tanks in due course to check for any corrosion on the tanks and the various panels either side as all the mud etc going up there from the rear wheels is a problem.
Dave J.

[cass3958]

Thanks Dave. I had the car grit blasted when I got it thinking it would get rid of all these surprises but this bunch of Monkeys at Flying Cat Engineering covered this area up with a plate which looked sound. You cannot see in to this area as it is a dead area behind the rear wheel arch and inner wheel arch. Obviously they saw this rust as they not only welded the repair patch in to the inner wheel arch but they also cut off the outer wheel arch so they could weld in the lower wheel arch repair panel. I mean seriously they are supposed to be professionals and even as an amateur restorer I know that you cut out any rust and replace it with new material not just weld the new material over the rust and leave it there hidden. They had not even treated the rust by way of painting it or with Jenolite. The panel they welded in was welded down one side (Shown by the black arrows) only tack welded in four spots along the top and held in at the bottom with sealer. These are photos of the back of their repair showing the rust they left behind (Outlined in Yellow) , the un welded folds they cut in to the metal to fold it (circled in white), and the tack weld points (circled in yellow)
Anyway it has all been cut out and removed now.

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I made a cardboard template then fashioned a metal plate to see if I could out of a piece of old rusty mild steel.

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It worked out quiet well and gave me an idea of the shape and how to planish it in to the right curves.

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I have now got the new steel to make the piece out of but I have found my Jaguar tool "Wife" is not working correctly and I have had to do some Gardening and fence building to try and get the "Wife" to repair correctly. By myself tomorrow so I might be able to get on with it.