3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

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Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by John Quilter » Fri May 07, 2021 3:34 pm

Yes, the preengaged type work better in colder weather as they continue to crank the engine until it has enough rotation to continue to run, not just one or two cylinders firing and throwing the pinion out of engagement. Same issue with my Morris Minors and MGTD but there is a work around. Crank the engine for 4 seconds with the ignition switch off then turn on the ignition. Not possible to do with the S Type as the starter is electrically operated not from a manual pull cable.

Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by Glyn Ruck » Thu May 06, 2021 11:10 pm

If one looks at the Lucas catalogues over time they can be assembled in different ways from the Parts List. How Jaguar decided what to fit to a specific car is at present a mystery.

They are all iterations of the M45G with different drive ends fitted to them.

By 1968 I'm surprised they were not fitting the pre-engaged type.

Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by dsbiggles » Thu May 06, 2021 3:22 pm

I certainly wouldn't want to put anyone off tackling this job, but it is a LOT easier if you have access to a ramp.

It helps (IMHO) if your car still has the band with the bolts - then you only need to worry about undoing the nuts.

If you are fitting a hi-torque starter I would recommend putting the band on the end facing the rear of the car and attach nuts from the front with a long extension - a £20 endoscope is a great help here.

The original motor (on a manual car) is easier to remove from underneath if you take off the oil filter. It can also be removed from above if you follow my tips about the throttle return spring, distributor cap and top radiator hose.

Here's my old motor FWIW. It is an M45G, as per the service manual. I have no idea if this was fitted from new (my car is a 1968). It may be that different motors were used from time to time, depending on stock from Joe Lucas (AKA The Prince of Darkness).
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20210505_230120.jpg
20210505_230120.jpg (1.41 MiB) Viewed 1237 times

Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by Glyn Ruck » Wed May 05, 2021 3:02 am

This is all most confusing. As I say I only have Lucas Jaguar Catalogues from '62 to & including '68. When I look at the Catalogues in detail I think starters can be configured in two ways & engage from both sides of the ring gear dependent on end plate & drive mechanism used/fitted.

My car is fitted as per Lucas catalogue MOD & original. Registered as Dec 65 but 4th car off of SA production line that was supposed to be Jan 66. Never been able to resolve so I call it a '65 ~ others call theirs '66. Same as Orlando's car externally. Starter still fitted when him & his Dad removed engine & transmission. (DG) ~ so I can't see protrusion into bell housing. Also a late '65.

engine removal 3 dec 1983 - 2.jpg
engine removal 3 dec 1983 - 2.jpg (188.46 KiB) Viewed 1261 times

As fiited to my car & Orlando's car.
Lucas Starter mine.JPG
Lucas Starter mine.JPG (90.87 KiB) Viewed 1274 times

1961 Mk2's were fitted with (recon)
Lucas starter motor Mk2 1961.JPG
Lucas starter motor Mk2 1961.JPG (104.8 KiB) Viewed 1274 times

1962 E Type was fitted with this which looks most like John's
E Type 62 starter motor.JPG
E Type 62 starter motor.JPG (34.43 KiB) Viewed 1274 times

Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by cass3958 » Tue May 04, 2021 2:56 pm

[/quote]

Rob. Is the Flexplate carrying the ring gear the same spacing between a DG250 & a Model 35 vs the starter motor?

[/quote]

Not sure Glyn as the parts manual covers the ring gear on the BW35 but does not seem to list it for the DG250.

Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by Glyn Ruck » Tue May 04, 2021 1:49 pm

cass3958 wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 10:32 am John there is definitely a difference between the MOD and Auto starters but the difference as far as I am aware is with the depth the starter goes in to the side of the bell housing. The MOD is shorter as the flywheel is closer to the engine block than the gear ring on the Auto. You can see here with these comparison photos. The first shows my old Auto starter next to a new MOD starter and the difference in length of the spindles and cog.
The second photo shows the old Auto starter then a new auto starter and at the bottom the new MOD starter. I have these photos because the company sent me the wrong MOD starter to begin with and although it bolted on to the side of the engine the teeth on the cog were no where near engaging with the gear ring.
The last photo is of a MOD Jaguar Mk2 starter motor and I assume this is the one you have. I can imagine this would be a lot easier to remove as it appears to be smaller and does not have the hood over the cog so it is more maneuverable to get in and out.
IMG_3454.JPGIMG_3492.JPGMk2 Jaguar MOD starter motor..jpg
Rob. Is the Flexplate carrying the ring gear the same spacing between a DG250 & a Model 35 vs the starter motor?

You might well be correct that John's car has ended up with an earlier than 1962 Mk2 starter motor fitted.

Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by Glyn Ruck » Tue May 04, 2021 12:46 pm

John Quilter wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 1:17 am Well you can see the Lucas starter fitted to my car from new on the RH side photograph of the engine out of the car. It does not resemble the ones on your Lucas parts sheets. It is the inertia engaged type but does not have part number 271919.
Remember those are Lucas Part numbers not Jaguar. The plot thickens. Those are the starter motors Lucas were making for Jaguar Daimler up to & including April 1965. Different numbers might include different reach for Auto. I purposely chose 65 because it is the first time they show both the inertia-type starter and the later pre-engaged type.

I shall do some more research. I don't have catalogues outside the S Type build period. I'm pretty sure all XJ6's will be pre engaged type so I will have to search earlier than 1962. Are you sure your car has it's original starter motor?

Here is what Lucas were building for Jaguar in 1968. (1968 catalogue for Jaguar/Daimler)

Lucas starter motors Jaguar 1968.JPG
Lucas starter motors Jaguar 1968.JPG (126.55 KiB) Viewed 1302 times

Here is what they were building for Jaguar 1962 (1962 catalogue for Jaguar/Daimler)

lucas_6-7_l.jpg
lucas_6-7_l.jpg (245.89 KiB) Viewed 1302 times

Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by abbirkin » Tue May 04, 2021 10:56 am

Hi all. I know this type of thing is trying to DIY, but just as a matter of interest, my starter motor has been removed twice during my ownership. Each time it has been done by a local garage with few problems (as the labour time showed). I do think they used an extension on an extension to remove the top bolt though.
Just in case anyone is dubious in trying this manouevre themselves.....
Barrie

Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by cass3958 » Tue May 04, 2021 10:32 am

John there is definitely a difference between the MOD and Auto starters but the difference as far as I am aware is with the depth the starter goes in to the side of the bell housing. The MOD is shorter as the flywheel is closer to the engine block than the gear ring on the Auto. You can see here with these comparison photos. The first shows my old Auto starter next to a new MOD starter and the difference in length of the spindles and cog.
The second photo shows the old Auto starter then a new auto starter and at the bottom the new MOD starter. I have these photos because the company sent me the wrong MOD starter to begin with and although it bolted on to the side of the engine the teeth on the cog were no where near engaging with the gear ring.
The last photo is of a MOD Jaguar Mk2 starter motor and I assume this is the one you have. I can imagine this would be a lot easier to remove as it appears to be smaller and does not have the hood over the cog so it is more maneuverable to get in and out.
IMG_3454.JPG
IMG_3454.JPG (2.99 MiB) Viewed 1309 times
IMG_3492.JPG
IMG_3492.JPG (3.19 MiB) Viewed 1309 times
Mk2 Jaguar MOD starter motor..jpg
Mk2 Jaguar MOD starter motor..jpg (367.87 KiB) Viewed 1309 times

Re: 3.4S (manual) Starter Motor

by John Quilter » Tue May 04, 2021 1:17 am

Well you can see the Lucas starter fitted to my car from new on the RH side photograph of the engine out of the car. It does not resemble the ones on your Lucas parts sheets. It is the inertia engaged type but does not have part number 271919.

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